Ethnikos Hellenismos

[Therapon]

Inspired by some discussions on various Hellenismos websites.

Hellenismos is growing and more internet groups are popping up with various different perspectives on what Hellenismos is. A new group Hellenistia.com as well as Neos Alexandria are promoting the view that Hellenismos is inclusive of the syncretistic religions of the Hellenistic period. Bearing in mind that most if not all definitions of Hellenism/Hellenismos include reference to the Helllenist perod, it appears to be a valid conclusion.

With that in mind I made the suggestion on one site that those of us who have no intention to reconstruct the syncretistic religions of the Hellenistic period and wish only to reconstruct the religion of classical Greece refer to our religion as 'Ethnikos Hellenismos'.

I realise that this is not an ideal solution and may be open to misinterpretation but it would parallel the use of the term Ethnikoi Hellenes as is used by YSEE and would have a similar meaning.

Do people think this is acceptable or should another term be sought?

[Timothy]

My understanding of YSEE's position, and someone please correct me if I am wrong, is that devotees of Esotericism, the New Age, Occultism and various other forms of modern mysticism and/or ritualism are considered exploiters of the Hellenic religion. The only reason 'Ethnikos' and 'Ethnikoi' are used is to distinguish genuine Hellenismos from inauthentic, inaccurate, or exploitative representations.

I understand why the word is used, but I think in the English speaking world it would be interpreted as and thoughtlessly linked to fascism, and create fears of eventual calls for ethnic cleansing, the same way Ásatrú and Odinism has been linked to white supremacy and neo-Nazism.

Since Hellenismos ideally should be enough to describe the traditional religion and culture, then I argue Hellenismos is the only identifier needed... at least in the English speaking world.

[Βλ. Ρασσιάς (Κρεσφόντης)]

XAIPE Timothy.
Unfortunately IN CONTEMPORARY GREEK "Hellenismos" is repeatedly used to describe people that simply coil around the Christian Orthodox dogma, obviously having nothing to do with what realy "Hellenismos" means. So, in order to describe the GENUINE Hellenimos WE HAVE TO use an adjective.

[Timothy]

I completely understand why YSEE uses the term, and am in no way suggesting a change.

The concern is with the US, UK, and other English speaking countries. Unlike the word 'Hellenism,' the word 'Hellenismos' has been unused and we can state unequivocally that Hellenismos is the practice and expression of the genuine Hellenic religion and culture.

We have different issues. In many English speaking countries, but specifically the US, Christianity does not have a stranglehold. The Hellenic religion is not outlawed, and in fact, if we had the funds, we could build a working Temple without much grief. Moreover, if we ever decided to bring back the practice of blood sacrifice (not that I am actually suggesting it), it is already a protected right according to the US Supreme Court.

The first thing we have to be cognizant of is that the word "ethnic" is a loaded word with us. There is a deep fear in the American consciousness of "ethnic" religious movements being a front for the type of "ethnic nationalism" that leads to discrimination, or worse. This is one of the reasons some describe Hellenismos as an indigenous or cultural religion, rather than ethnic.

The second issue is that since Hellenismos has started to grow in popularity, the term has been co-opted by devotees of Esotericism, the New Age, Occultism and various other forms of modern mysticism and/or ritualism. These individuals and groups actively promote the idea what Hellenismos 'is' is vague, illusive and generally undefined, and strip it of its cultural identity. In response, some have resorted to using the term 'genuine' or 'authentic' Hellenismos. Unfortunately, attempts to discuss genuine Hellenismos is often met with angry and venomous indignation.

[Therapon]

...in order to describe the GENUINE Hellenimos WE HAVE TO use an adjective.

We have not had to do this in the English speaking community up until recently.

Tim I'm only suggesting using this term in Greek, specifically 'Ethnikos Hellenismos' perhaps we could use something else in English? I have been using the term Exclusive but that has negative connotations and associations, perhaps something like Integral Hellenic Polytheism/Hellenism would be less offensive and more descriptive? (Integral = whole, complete)

[Timothy]

I think adding adjectives takes something simple to understand, and makes it complicated. Even if we adopt the qualifier 'Ethnikos' in unison with those living in Greece, we are still making the distinction between what is genuine and what is not. That one point, above all others, is why there is so much anger and venom directed at us. We say the genuine Hellenic religion consists of a worldview, lifestyle, ethical standpoint and a body specific religious views. "They" are offended by that distinction, and want the validation of being considered practicing the Ancient Greek religion. The moment one states devotees of Esotericism, the New Age, Occultism and various other forms of modern mysticism and/or ritualism are not part of the practice and expression of the genuine Hellenic religion, we get labeled as intolerant.

[Therapon]

I think adding adjectives takes something simple to understand, and makes it complicated. Even if we adopt the qualifier 'Ethnikos' in unison with those living in Greece, we are still making the distinction between what is genuine and what is not.

We're actually making a distinction between Hellenic (original) and Hellenistic (syncretistic) both are forms of Hellenism but only the former has the right to call itself Ethnic Hellenism or Hellenismos.

[Mano Madytinos]

I think you are missing the point here. When we use the word GENUINE we make only one distinction and that is between that which is 'ethnic' Greek and that which is not.

[Timothy]

Mano, what do you think of this statement?

The Hellenic Religion is an ancient ethnic religion and as such it has no relation to Freemasonry, the second being a relatively recent entity (historically founded at the end of the Middle Ages) and of course not a religion.

Freemasonry of course has picked elements from various ancient religions, including the Hellenic one, but this doesn't make it "correlative" to these religions.

I read this to mean the Hellenic religion is the ethnic religion. My understanding has always been that YSEE's reason for using words like 'genuine' and Ethnikoi' was to distinguish them from inauthentic interpretations who falsely claim the identity, which includes everything from Christianity to neo-religions. Do you disagree?

[Mano Madytinos]

I agree with Mr Rassias. The term Ethnikoi is indeed used to differentiate between that which is indigenous to Hellas and that which is not. Freemasonry (as per your quotation) certainly is neither an indigenous Hellenic organisation nor an indigenous Hellenic teaching even though there are Greek Freemasons. I think I made this quite clear on the thread in question.

XAIPE Timothy.
Unfortunately IN CONTEMPORARY GREEK "Hellenismos" is repeatedly used to describe people that simply coil around the Christian Orthodox dogma, obviously having nothing to do with what realy "Hellenismos" means. So, in order to describe the GENUINE Hellenimos WE HAVE TO use an adjective.

In this statement Mr Rassias makes the reason for why the adjective Ethnikoi is used very clearly and how it's usage qualifies the word Hellenismos (thus excluding foreign Byzantine culture and other foreign influences). For me to further comment on it would be superfluous.

[Timothy]

I was just a little confused by the statement made by you here, and statements being made on the "Neopaganism a manufactured ploy?" and the "Freemason" threads. So then you agree that these other interpretations are inauthentic and not true forms of Hellenismos, and statements made about Freemasonry and the general statements about 'Neopaganism' apply to groups like the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and Ár nDraíocht Féin or individuals similar in character?

[Mano Madytinos]

Yes, you are obviously confused .
As I have quite clearly stated (many times over), Ethnikos Hellenismos (which is the topic of this thread) refers to that which is indigenous to Hellas and, as far as I know and in accordance with the limits of my knowledge, neither Neo-Paganism nor the organisations you have mentioned originated in Hellas (and to my knowledge, do not claim to either). Nor do they express Hellenic culture or the language and traditions, hence the answer to your question is possibly self-evident.
However, any combination of 'foreign' traditions with Hellenic influences may by definition be referred to as Hellenistic.

It may be pertinent to remember that Hellenic philosophy (as a true expression of Ethnikos Hellenismos) in the form of Plato's Republic (433a) tells us that it is a virtue of the PSYCHE and an expression of DIKEOSYNE to concern ourselves only with our own personal business and to refrain from interference in other people's affairs. So perhaps, in order that we may truly exemplify the ideals of Hellenic virtue ourselves, we should desist from further discussing those who are not present to offer their arguments for our consideration. Using this approach, I would only logically be able to supply an educated opinion about Freemasonry and its origins but could not discuss the other organisations you name with any amount of veracity as I have not ever been associated with them and know nothing of their true origins or teachings.
I would advise you to direct your concerns about these groups and which collective they identify with to the appropriate person at the organisations in question.

Be that as it may I would further refer to our discussion on the subject in the following thread: viewtopic.php?lang=en&f=42&t=5519 entitled Occultism and Neopaganism and reiterate that my point of view has not changed. Do we really need to have this argument again? I think Mr Rassias sums it up very nicely when he states: "For the time being lets repeat our thesis that occultists have the right to daydream whatever they like for themselves, to the same degree that we have the right to defend OUR Religion and Tradition from all forms of exploitation", in the above mentioned thread.
At any rate if you may be more specific about what is unclear to you I am more than willing to clarify it for you point by point.

[Timothy]

Mr Rassias did sum things up nicely, and I agree with him. I'm asking about your opinion since it was you who said Therapon and I were missing the point.

This is what you wrote...

It may be pertinent to remember that Hellenic philosophy (as a true expression of Ethnikos Hellenismos) in the form of Plato's Republic (433a) tells us that it is a virtue of the PSYCHE and an expression of DIKEOSYNE to concern ourselves only with our own personal business and to refrain from interference in other people's affairs. So perhaps, in order that we may truly exemplify the ideals of Hellenic virtue ourselves, we should desist from further discussing those who are not present to offer their arguments for our consideration. Using this approach, I would only logically be able to supply an educated opinion about Freemasonry and its origins but could not discuss the other organisations you name with any amount of veracity as I have not ever been associated with them and know nothing of their true origins or teachings.

...to concern ourselves only with our own personal business and to refrain from interference in other people's affairs, and we should desist from further discussing those who are not present to offer their arguments for our consideration? How do you reconcile those statements with your clear act of renouncing and repudiation on the other threads?

[Mano Madytinos]

I think that you obviously did not read what I wrote properly…I did not exclude myself from the statement I made about people minding their own business…I said quite clearly 'WE should desist from FURTHER discussing…etc, etc'. The word 'further' is the key to understanding this sentence because it directly indicates that some discussion of this nature has obviously already occurred and obviously the usage of the word 'we' implies guilt on my part.
I did not however intend the statement to be a smack on the hand for anyone though and it was certainly more of a call to handle our discussion in a manner consistent with ARÊTE (including the idea of self-improvement and progression) rather than analyse how Hellenic or un-Hellenic other organisations may be based on their theological views, without giving them a chance to speak for themselves. Meaning that I live in hope of exemplifying the Hellenic ideals of virtue myself and although I may sometimes fail miserably, everyday brings me a fresh chance to handle life's challenges in a way where I do not repeat the mistakes of the past. Therefore for the purposes of encouraging virtue within my own soul, I would prefer to desist from further discussing those who are absent specially when I have no authority to speak on behalf of their organizations or any insider knowledge thereof.

You, of course, can do as you please.

[Timothy]

Is this your blog? http://rathamanthys.livejournal.com/460.html

It is posted under another name, but I saw that you promoted it. I'm not sure it was you I was discussing this with, or someone else. If it was you, that conversation on this same subject goes back a couple of months. I would be interested to know, because whoever that was made those statements a couple months ago.

So then your position opinion is that there should be acknowledged a kind of Hellenic pluralism, and there should be no disavowing of Neopaganism, New Ageism, Esotericism, Occultism, and so on and so forth? These other movements should be considered genuine forms of Hellenismos or authentic interpretations? Does that mean an official change in YSEE's position toward these movements, including their position regarding Christianity?